Survivor Millennials vs Gen X: Zeke Smith Looks Back on His Game

Months ago, the day before the 20 contestants of Survivor: Millennials vs Gen X flew out to Fiji, Zeke Smith had a plan. It involved paying tribute to the last time the show filmed in Fiji, twenty seasons earlier.

“I’ve got some ideas about some fake immunity idol shenanigans that I want to play,” Zeke said during our pre-season phone interview. “One, if I find an idol, I want to make a fake idol and go take whoever’s my closest alliance mate and bring them to the tree, make them dig around so they find it — so that we’re working with the same information, and so we don’t have to split votes when we don’t have to split votes. The second thing is, if there’s ever a person that I want to put a target on, I’m going to hide an idol in their bag and discover it. I feel like we’re going to Fiji, and we have to honor Yau-Man and the first-ever fake immunity idol.”

Hanging up the phone, I had a few thoughts about Zeke. One was that he was planning to play hard. Really, he was already playing hard. The casual reference to going to Fiji? The Survivors don’t officially know where they’re headed yet, and as press, we can’t confirm anything they don’t officially know. A small and subtle attempt at digging some info out of a reporter? Can’t blame a contestant for trying.

As a big fan of the show with an Ivy League education and an affable personality helped along by colorful attire and a polarizing mustache, Zeke stood out to me as someone whose big ideas would either get him in immediate trouble, or fuel him toward the end game. It was certainly more the latter than the former, even if Zeke’s time was cut short thanks to Will Wahl’s insistence on scoring resumé points. And in fairness, some of Zeke’s own actions, both his wins and his losses, led to the Brooklyn asset manager’s downfall.

Since Zeke’s boot episode rightfully focused on Adam Klein (and really, few Survivor players have ever had a bigger personal episode than the one Adam experienced this week), today’s exit interview feels like a good opportunity to get an overview of the season from someone who was at the center of so much action. With that in mind, here’s Zeke on the early days on Millennial beach, surviving the swap, going to war with David Wright, witnessing the show’s third-ever rock draw, and much more.

Wigler: Meta question to start. What did you think of your boot episode? What’s the Zeke Smith review of the Zeke Smith downfall?

Zeke: Well, how can you not enjoy a boot episode where someone else looks like they’re making the dumb move? Right? I think I got off a little scot-free. I think Will comes off looking a little sillier than I do.

Wigler: We’ll get into all of that, but I want to start at the top of the experience for you, beginning with before you even arrived in Fiji. When we spoke before the season, you talked about wanting to get creative with fake immunity idols. Did you ever attempt anything?

Zeke: Yes, there was some fake idol shenanigans. So, Figgy was running around like a maniac looking for the idol. She had everybody on edge. That’s why we didn’t build the shelter; everyone was busy chasing Figgy around as she was trying to find the idol. So I saved the wrapped from my buff at the marooning, and found a piece of sea debris that was about the size of a hidden immunity idol. I wrapped it up in the cloth and put it in my bag. I was not very subtle about putting it in my bag. I wanted people to see it. Figgy ultimately reached her hand in my bag and grasped this fake immunity idol, so there was enough concern that I might have the idol where I avoided being cut when Mari got cut. I think I very well could have gone home then, but there was enough concern that I might have an idol that the votes got turned away from me.

Wigler: Did you know you were in trouble at that point? Was that part of the reason why you went and built the idol?

Zeke: It was mostly … Jay and I made it together. We didn’t like that Figgy was running around looking for the idol while we were building the shelter. So we did it so Figgy would stop looking for the idol so we could go looking for the idol. I did not know I was in trouble at the time. It was just a happy accident.

Wigler: What was life like on the Millennial tribe?

Zeke: The Millennial tribe was just a ton of fun. It felt like the early days of college. One of my favorite memories was one night when the other tribe was at Tribal, we went down to the beach and built a bonfire and started playing charades that quickly devolved into dirty charades. It was a lot of fun for me, because I got the opportunity to teach Will Wahl a thing or two about life.

Wigler: Then it’s only fair that he paid you back in kind!

Zeke: Very true.

Wigler: Where did things split for you and the Millennials? How did you find yourself on the wrong end of the Mari vote, specifically?

Zeke: It all starts with Figgy and Michelle. I was not close with either of them. I kept having very weird conversations with Figgy. Michelle wasn’t that interested in talking to me. I was really tight with Jay and did not see that I was not voting with Jay. Jay and I spoke openly about voting out Figgy, and I thought it made sense for both of us. I thought it made sense to get Figgy out of the picture so he could have Taylor. It was almost better for Jay to have Taylor unattached, so that there wouldn’t be another person whispering in Taylor’s ear; it would only be Jay. I was really surprised. I wasn’t even that close to Adam! When we were the ones left on the bottom, I was like, “Great. I’m on the bottom with a guy I don’t really trust!”

Wigler: So your trust issues with Adam go back a long way? It’s not something that developed at the merge, it goes back to the start of the game?

Zeke: Right. I think Adam and I both walked into Survivor thinking we had the smart, strategic superfan archetype down. When we ran into each other, we were sort of like, “No, listen to me. This is what I’m doing.” We were kind of competitive with one another. Adam and I… I was the one who would go home if the Millennials went to Tribal in episodes three or four. We sort of tried to see if there was wiggle room — sorry…

Wigler: Yes!

Zeke: …on the Figgy vote, but it was clear Will and Michaela weren’t going to flip from Michelle and Jay. So my only option was to come after Adam, and he knew about that. We left things on the Millennial beach with me trying to vote Adam out. Not because I didn’t like him, but because it was my only move.

Wigler: You survive those episodes. The swap hits. You wind up on a tribe with David, Chris, CeCe and Michelle. It’s your connection with Chris that gets you through. How did you guys forge that connection?

Zeke: It actually goes back to casting. Chris and I were at the same casting finals, and I’m a big [Oklahoma University] fan and I wore a big OU shirt to lunch one day, and Chris saw me. The next time I see Chris, he’s wearing an Oklahoma football shirt. He gives me a wink, and I wink back, and from then on, I think we were very excited to see each other on the island. Like, when we got split generationally, I was so bummed because I really wanted to play with Chris. When we swapped, and I see that big ginger-haired football player barreling over to my mat, I immediately knew my game was about to turn around. It’s interesting. The last thing we say to each other in the game is “Boomer! Sooner!” But that was the first thing we said to each other, too.

Wigler: Full circle! Just to go back to what you said about the generational split, what were your first thoughts when you found out the theme for the season?

Zeke: I thought it was terrible for my game! I don’t get along with young people. I think one of my best confessionals is saying I belong at the Miami retirement center, and it’s very true. My best connections and my best moves will be with Gen X-ers and I’ll get tripped up again and again by Millennials.

Wigler: And that starts to bear out as soon as you make it to the swap, in connecting with Chris and David.

Zeke: We talk about this a lot. Dave, Chris and I all sort of think similarly. We go through the same logical processes. We’re not super swayed by our emotions, as far as our decision making process goes. I think there’s something to playing Survivor with people who think like you, so you can always be on the same page. I can track that with Hannah. America missed out on the soap opera that was Zeke and Hannah, starting from the early moments of the game, where we both discovered we’re members of the same cult: The Upright Citizens Brigade. We both study and perform comedy on different coasts. Hannah and I would meet at some point in life at an improv class and be best friends, and now, we’re very close. We were very close out there, too. I was so perplexed about why Hannah flipped on me from 6-4 to 5-5. She just sort of picked David over me. I’ll never really understand it.

Wigler: Well, talk me through the David war. At the time you hit the swap and forge your bond with Chris, you’re also meeting David, someone who you will come into conflict with later on. For the time being, at the swap, you’re partners. How did your relationship transform from allies to adversaries?

Zeke: Dave and I bonded over being super-fans, specifically being fans of Rob Has a Podcast and listening to The Evolution of Strategy…

Wigler: Nice plug.

Zeke: Well, you know. We did all the same preparation. We both understand how to play. It got to a point where we were always on the same page, and then in our own minds, it would be: “Okay, so the logical extrapolation then is I have to go after Dave,” and Dave is thinking, “I have to go after Zeke.” I think we both saw that we were starting to have the same thought, and we were starting to grow apart. For me, I felt Dave has an idol. I need to come for him before he can come for me, because he has so much more power. I think in an alternate universe, if I could do it all again, then instead of withdrawing from David, I would say, “Dude, we’re clearly the strategic shot-callers of the season. Let’s shield each other. Let’s shake hands and go to the final four. Whoever makes fire first, winner takes all.” I think that would have been the move for both of us. Instead, it was a race to the bottom to come for the one before he comes for you.

Wigler: It got a little personal at the rock-draw Tribal Council, where you asked David if he’s going to cry… how did it get to that point? Were you actually agitated by David at a certain point?

Zeke: Oh god. That was really terrible. I’m really embarrassed about that. I think the answer is no. I wasn’t actually agitated with David. There’s a playfulness there that does not come across. I remember before I said that, David said, “Would the members of Zeke’s alliance like to raise their hands?” And no one had ever taken shots at each other like that. That Tribal Council was tense. I spent all afternoon trying to hype my army up, and trying to get them emotional enough that they would want to draw rocks. I remember feeling like it was a very stupid comment. But it wasn’t malicious. David and I share a very deprecating sense of humor. We would often kid each other about our shared childhood depression and anxieties, something we both experienced to a great degree. Dave speaks about it, and I don’t, because I’m not comfortable being vulnerable. (Laughs.) But we would joke about crying a lot, or me being fat, or whatever it was. We would kid with each other. You even see it at the loved ones visit. Bret starts to cry and we all shout “LOOSAH!” In the heat and without the context, it comes off a lot worse than it was actually intended.

Wigler: Winding back a bit to the Chris vote. In your Ponderosa video, you said voting Chris out was your biggest mistake. Do you still believe that? If you had to pin your downfall on one moment in the game, is that the one?

Zeke: No. I actually will defend to the death the Chris vote. For me, my downfall is that Hannah flipped on me. I spent so much time with Hannah. We would stay up two to three hours every night, having what we called “cocktails,” where we would talk through every conversation we had, we would share all of the intelligence. It was completely open between Hannah and I. It was also me taking care of Hannah. She needed some care-taking. Hannah didn’t come into the merge with a single ally. She had just been blinded by all of the Ikabula people. She wasn’t tight with the Millennials. I was kind of the only person Hannah had, and I tried to coach her: “You need to have a conversation with Dave and Ken and Jess and Chris and Bret and Sunday.” I sort of helped Hannah get her game back on track — and then it appears, of course, that I made the introduction that would lead to my downfall. I thought she knew I was going to take her to the end, and that I was giving her all of this information. Why would you ever turn on me? You have the best deal in playing with me! Especially since you’re going to have a lot more leverage to get me out at, say, five, than I will to get you out.

Wigler: So that was frustrating.

Zeke: Yeah, it especially didn’t make sense to me because we had the numbers. If Hannah stuck with me, we would have had six-four. She flipped to tie it five-five. Like Chris was a little hurt when I turned on him, I was a little hurt when Hannah turned on me. It really hurt my feelings. It really tapped into deep-seeded feelings of abandonment and all kind of crazy stuff. (Laughs.)

Wigler: Talk me through your vantage point of the rock draw. Did you know it was going to get that far? What was going through your mind that night?

Zeke: I wanted to force rocks. I knew the only way I was safe was if they misplayed the idol and I survive two tie votes. I may be the only person in Survivor history to say, “Man, I hope we go to rocks!”

Wigler: I think Hayden was pretty excited to go to rocks, to be fair!

Zeke: I don’t know that he had the strategic setup that I had. I knew I had to create chaos in Dave’s army. So I was running around, planning this split vote between Will and Jay and trying to get everyone very confused. I think we did have them confused. We had a decoy name planted: Ken. Everyone knew that story, we were trying to get the idol misplayed on Ken. When all the whispering broke out at Tribal, everyone on my side knew to stay strong, but Sunday was really clutch. It was a brilliant move on her part to whisper Ken’s name out there. Ultimately Hannah and Adam took the bait. That was the first level, getting the idol misplayed. Great, idol’s misplayed, now you have to steel yourself to see your name five times, which is tough. Then there was a half an hour of conversation that didn’t make it, trying to convince Jess to flip. I actually thought Jess flipped. We all thought she did. Then you see your name four more times. Then getting through that discussion about the unanimous vote, which was about 45 minutes long, was really scary. When you think about it, there’s no reason to keep me in the game. The four people on my side are people I have blindsided within the past three votes. It’s not like they’re my closest allies. They’re new allies. I remember that we had been arguing about it for a half an hour, and I remember saying to Jeff: “Jeff, we need a bag of rocks.” And I’ll never forget it, because it was one of the most dramatic things ever: Jeff just looks at me, reaches his hand into the urn, and produces this red bag. My heart just went aflutter. I was so happy. I wanted to jump off my stoop and do a jig. It was one of the greatest feelings of my life.

Wigler: You survive the rock draw, but only for one more round. Let’s move onto the boot episode, and let’s start with the loved ones visit, which was such a great moment.

Zeke: It was a lot more than I expected. My dad and I aren’t really close. When I pictured the loved ones visit, I imagined everyone’s parents running and crying towards them, and my dad would come lumbering out to shake my hand. That’s just our relationship! He said some extremely kind things to me. He’s never said anything like that to me before. The moment I got most choked up is when he came running down the path running, crying, happy to see me. It blew my mind. My dad and I are forever better because were on Survivor together.

Wigler: Will gets the idea to turn against you. Was it as simple as him wanting to make a big move for the resumé?

Zeke: I do think a lot of it is that Will wanted to make a big move. You know, Will’s a big super-fan. I think he wanted to, just like I did, I wanted to make sure I made my impact on the game. The last thing I wanted was to be a goat, to be someone who makes it to the end without a case to win. I understand where Will’s coming from. I kind of feel like he was in a position where he had swing vote power in the game, and the numbers were starting to dwindle. If you’re going to make a big move, you need to make a big move. I actually saw Will running around with Dave and Hannah and knew that he had flipped. I was like, “Will, what’s the deal?” He wouldn’t talk to me about it. Then Ken tells Jay, and there’s this whole test of Will’s manhood from Ken… (Laughs.) And I remember sitting down with Will and being like: “Will, you know I need you much more than they need you. I’m your shield. I’m the one you can get out at any time and everyone will always be happy to vote me out, so I need you. You’re the most important person in my game. Do you really want to flip and be on the bottom of someone else’s alliance? Ken is already throwing you under the bus. You really trust these guys?” And I actually thought that I flipped Will back by the time we went to Tribal. Obviously Adam thought there was enough of a chance that I flipped Will, since he played the idol.

Wigler: How did Adam know to play the idol on Hannah?

Zeke: Will flipped. He did flip. Adam sort of usurped his big move by playing the idol, but Will gave them who we were voting for. He gave them Hannah. I don’t know if Will knew that Adam had the idol. I don’t know if anyone knew Adam had the idol.

Wigler: So Adam plays the idol with the information given to him by Will, even though numerically, he has Will on his side and doesn’t ultimately need to play the idol. In getting voted out in that moment, as much as you could look back and appreciate gameplay, who were you giving credit to? Was it Will’s flip or Adam spiking the ball with the idol that you feel deserved the most credit for the move?

Zeke: I think people think it’s Will’s move, because he’s shifting from one side to another. I don’t know if there’s a lot of… and maybe I’m just being a Bitter Betty because it was me who got voted out. But I don’t know that there’s a ton of respect for the move overall, but it definitely lands on Will’s shoulders.

Wigler: Last week, Jessica talked to me about how flippers weren’t respected. Will flips this week. What’s your take on flipping? And would you classify how you were playing as flipping?

Zeke: I don’t know that I flipped. I’m equally tight with Chris and David and I have to pick a side. I don’t know if you consider it flipping if you have to pick a side. I also think, look, everyone was really proud of how well people were playing Survivor. I think the person who had the best resumé and played the best was going to win in the end. I think that person was going to be respected. If that requires you to flip? So be it. I also think the deck really did reshuffle every Tribal Council. At the end of the day, everyone was going to have one or many flips on their resumé.

Wigler: What did you think of the resumé talk being out in the open? It’s certainly a real issue: you want to have talking points when you get to the end, or at least sit with people who are less impressive than you are. But to actually vocalize the idea of scoring resumé points… is that just where we are in Survivor right now? Have we become so meta?

Zeke: On Season 33, strategy talk was very open. It was very meta. I think a big reason for that is that you have a lot of, as Adam would say, super-duper fans still in the game. You have a lot of people discussing strategy openly, as it would be if it was a conversation between you and I discussing strategy openly. We were out there to play. There was never a sin for if you wanted to out and have a conversation with somebody. You could pull someone down the path and not make an excuse for it. You could lay out the numbers and explain your strategy. There was no sort of trying to emotionally move people toward a vote. People were making the best logical decisions that they could. It’s because everyone was playing very, very hard.

Wigler: I want you to give me your quick takes on a few people we haven’t discussed much, starting with Jay.

Zeke: I love Jay. I think Jay is a tremendous human being. He’s one of my favorite guys to be out there with. We had a nice little bromance. It would have been nice to see that. I think Jay is very savvy. I think it’s incredibly impressive that he makes a big move going into the merge, has a huge target for being part of the upper echelon of Millennials, and has been able to hide and dodge the vote as far as he has. I think Jay is a pretty dangerous guy. He’s well-liked by a lot of people.

Wigler: How about Ken?

Zeke: I never understood Ken. I think I’m a very objective, practical guy. Ken’s a bit more of a philosopher and a dreamer. He’s a great fisherman and a great chef. He was loyal to David. I think that was his main strategic contribution as far as I saw.

Wigler: What about Bret, your drinking buddy?

Zeke: Still my drinking buddy! Look, Bret’s a tremendous guy. If Bret wasn’t enough of a hero from our conversation last [episode], Bret’s actually getting an award on Sunday from the Boston mayor’s office for saving a guy’s life from before we went out on Survivor. He’s a real deal hero. I’m so proud of him. I’m really touched. It’s really a privilege to be a part of someone’s coming out journey. It’s a big deal. I’m so excited for Bret. Sorry, sometimes I can’t contain myself. (Laughs.) He’s a great guy to be out there with. People enjoy Bret’s company quite a bit. I would think he’s maybe not as strategically savvy as some of the super-duper fans, but he understands the personal dynamics that are going on. He’s playing a good game.

Wigler: And what about Sunday, who we’re seeing very little of… what aren’t we seeing?

Zeke: Sunday has a tremendous social game. It’s very subtle and very quiet. Sunday was friends with everybody. The reason why Hannah and Adam bite on Ken’s name in that Tribal is because they both think they’re in tight with Sunday. She has a very trusting relationship with a lot of people. She was sticking by Bret’s side when we were out there, and she was playing a smart and subtle game. She’s playing very much into the mom archetype, and very intentionally. It’s Sunday’s goal to be someone who people think they can beat in the end.

Wigler: You said Survivor was a dream come true for you. There is another super fan or five somewhere out there who’s going to live their dreams and be on Survivor some day. I would love for you to talk to that person right now. What is that person getting into?

Zeke: Here’s what I would say to the super-fan. The game is beautiful. Survivor is everything you want it to be. It truly is a dream come true. It might even exceed your expectations, if that’s possible. Remember and hold dear your love for Survivor, because it’s going to suck out there! But hold that love close to your heart. More than anything, the prize is not the million dollars. The prize is the opportunity to play the world’s greatest game and have this incredible experience. So play hard, play smart. The relationships are your foundation. If you can’t win? Go down swinging.

Josh Wigler is a writer, editor and podcaster who has been published by MTV News, New York Magazine, The Hollywood Reporter, Comic Book Resources and more. He is the co-author of The Evolution of Strategy: 30 Seasons of Survivor, an audiobook chronicling the reality TV show’s transformation, and one of the hosts of Post Show Recaps, a podcast about film and television. Follow Josh on Twitter @roundhoward.