“Losing today was a blessing in disguise.” These are regrettable words, coming from a person who was voted out just a few hours later.
In her defense, Liz Markham had every reason to feel confident in her place in the game. She was partnered up with the presidential Peter Baggenstos, and as a twosome, they were at the core of two other partnerships on their Brains tribe … except they weren’t. Not really.
Instead, the joke was on them, as snake-flavored ice cream man Neal Gottlieb and Harry Potter enthusiast Aubry Bracco enlisted in water wizard Debbie Wanner’s navy, alongside her trusted lieutenant Joseph Del Campo. Together, the foursome used Peter and Liz’s own plan to split the votes against them, sending Liz packing in a blindside she did not see coming.
Or did she see it coming? Were there warning signs that Liz picked up on that we, the viewers, did not see? That was one of my chief questions for the latest victim of Survivor Kaôh Rōng when I got the chance to pick her brain this morning. Here’s what she had to say about that, her thoughts on her fellow tribe mates, and her past association with a Fish called Stephen.
But first, I had to ask her what she was doing here…
There’s so much to cover with you, Liz, but here’s the number one item on my board: Can you explain the telescope doohickey for me?
Oh! I was trying to figure out the height of a coconut tree, so I was using it more as a protractor than as a telescope. If I could get a 45 degree angle, stand at a certain distance from the base of the tree, and if the line of sight was right with the two sticks, I could tell the height of the tree was the same as the distance from the tree.
And this is why you are on the Brains tribe and I’m just a blogger. What was the dynamic like on your tribe? What happens when you strand six people with high IQs on a beach together?
I don’t think we’re just chosen because we’re brainy or more intelligent than the others. I think they try to find people who will have an interesting dynamic with each other. I think at first, Debbie’s whacky attitude probably made her seem like an outsider among the rest of the people who could all maybe even be friends if we met each other in real life. But gradually, things shifted as we got to know each other better. We ended up forming three pairs of people who mutually felt like they could trust each other, but weren’t too sure about the other pairs. We ended up with three pairs all playing all sides.
Initially, in the first episode, it looked like an alliance of four between you, Peter, Neal and Aubry, with Joe and Debbie on the outside. Was that overblown?
I think it seemed that way, but what you probably didn’t see enough was the four of me, Peter, Joe and Debbie — and you didn’t see the four that excluded me and Peter. I think all of these groups happened within the first couple of days.
Why Peter? Why was he your constant?
He was the one I felt I could talk to about game stuff and not have him feel like I was trying too hard. We could actually talk about the mid-game and end-game boot orders. I think feeling like you can’t broach a topic with somebody puts a bit of a barrier between people, and can make people feel isolated.
You two put a plan into motion to get rid of Neal. Why was he your number one target? What was it about him you didn’t trust? Was it really the ice cream pants?
No, it had nothing to do with the ice cream pants. [Laughs] I think he liked being perceived as goofy and an oddball who wasn’t very strategic, but we could see through that. We knew he was a savvy player. We knew Aubry was a savvy player, too. It seemed like we could trust Debbie. I thought she did legitimately like us. And we calculated that Joe hated Neal more than he hated me. [Laughs] That was maybe not true.
Right, your tension with Joe was a big part of the Brains tribe story in episode two.
Yeah. Joe was snapping at me a lot, but he was also snapping at Neal a lot. I don’t think I ever saw Joe and Neal speak to each other without a lot of tension there. That’s where Peter and my confidence came from, what we saw as a big conflict between these two.
Going back to Neal, was there anything specific about how he was acting or what he was saying that raised your alarm?
I think just his attitude and way of being. He’s obviously a very smart guy and has a great way of thinking about things. It just didn’t seem like he was someone you could rely on to not make a move against your alliance later on in the game. And as for why we went after Neal and not Aubry, it was because we felt that Joe would be much more keen on taking out Neal.
It looks like Aubry’s getting along with pretty much everybody.
Yeah, I would say so.
Debbie has come off as incredibly kooky in the first two episodes, but last night, she showed some serious game. She has this great line: “If someone’s going to snow me, I’m going to snow them right back.” She played along with you and Peter while simultaneously plotting to take you out. Were you surprised on the replay about how much she was steering the ship of the counter alliance?
I am a little bit surprised to see that. It’s what I felt had happened. I felt like Debbie deserved the credit for the move. But I thought she might get a one-dimensional character edit as a kooky person. I’m really glad they’re showing her smart and savvy side too. It makes for better TV, having full and fleshed-out characters. I’m glad. I think she’s one of the more savvy players out there.
How much did your impression of her change while you were out there?
At first, before the game started and before anything else, I didn’t quite know what to expect. I thought she seemed really strong, and somebody who could go a long way and be awesome. When we first got to interact, which was during the marooning in the first episode, they show her saying how great she is at swimming… pretty much that entire raft ride back to the beach she was talking about her laundry list of skills and abilities. I was a little disappointed, honestly, because she seemed like someone I wanted to work with, but everyone else was getting annoyed. [Laughs] But gradually, I think she grew on everybody.
Did you have a bet on how many cats? Over or under 40?
No, we didn’t bet on cats. She rescues yorkies and she has turtles, but I don’t think she has any cats. But we did bet on how many jobs she has, and I thought it would be under ten, and Peter had over ten.
Based on the chyrons at least, I think Peter’s the winner.
Yeah, he was right. [Laughs]
The Brawn and Beauty immunity idols were both found last night. What was the state of the immunity idol at Brains, at least to your knowledge?
We were all looking. Maybe not Joe, but I think everybody else was looking for the idol. As far as I could tell, idol fear was very high. Peter and I wanted to split the vote in case Neal or Aubry had it. They must have split the vote thinking one of us had the idol. There was a lot of talk about it. When we finished the challenge at the end of the first episode, the first thing Neal did when we got back was go through the big thing of charcoal to look for an idol clue. It was very much a topic of conversation.
At Tribal Council, you observed: “I think the person who goes home tonight will not be completely shocked.” When you said that, did you suspect you were in trouble at that point, or were you feeling secure?
About a half an hour before Tribal, Peter and I got the sense that something had changed. Joe and Neal started being shiftier. They wouldn’t make eye contact. Things felt wrong. But I definitely felt they would target Peter.
Why?
I thought they liked me more than they liked him. I thought that he had been … like, I felt that Debbie didn’t like him and Aubry didn’t like him. I felt they liked me better. Maybe not Joe.
Last night’s immunity challenge was incredibly close. If Debbie is a half second faster, Brains doesn’t go to Tribal, and you’re still in the game. Playing with that timeline a bit, what were your thoughts about the future of the game? Were you and Peter planning on staying true to Brains for the long haul, or breaking off?
We didn’t have a concrete plan. You never know who might end up on your tribe in a swap or a merge. Well, I guess you know at the merge! But the whole situation is so up in the air. But I did think working with Peter provided me with cover. I thought he was more threatening if we did go into a swap or a merge together. I felt people would gun for him over me. That’s what I thought was best about being allies with him.
Do you ever replay the challenge in your mind? “Go faster, Debbie!”
No, not really! I think the challenges aren’t that huge a component of the game, in that if you can’t survive Tribal… that’s more important than the challenges.
So what would you do differently if you could go back, then? If it’s something in that final day, or something earlier…
I think in that last half hour, knowing they were coming after me and Peter, there wasn’t much we could do. At that point, there wasn’t much we could do to shift anyone’s opinion. But one thing I could have done is, if I realized they were going to split the vote, I could have voted for Peter and send him home on a 3-2-1. That’s probably the only thing I could have done at that point. But further back, if Peter and I had worked with Neal and Aubry to vote out Joe, I think that probably would have worked. I’m not sure, though. They might have already been set on voting us.
We have a mutual friend in common: Stephen Fishbach (Survivor: Tocantins and Survivor: Second Chance), who you knew before you went out to Cambodia. What’s your side of the Fish tale?
We met on OK Cupid and went on a couple of dates. It was a lot of fun. He’s a great guy and a good conversationalist. I think we had more fun as friends than any sort of romantic connection.
When did he pitch you on Survivor?
Date number one. He saw my profile and his first thought was, “Wow, this girl should be on Survivor!” I had watched a couple of seasons before we went out, so I knew what he was talking about.
Did you know he was a contestant?
I did. He had one comment somewhere down his profile about having done it. It wasn’t an explicit thing he talked about, but I was definitely interested in talking to him about that.
What kind of advice did he give you before you played?
He gave me a lot of advice for preparation. We talked a lot about strategy, although most of the conversations focused on mid-game and end-game. We talked a lot about how to not get perceived as threatening, and how to get people to work with you later on in the game if you need somebody to flip. Those kinds of things. Clearly we did not talk enough about the early game.
Josh Wigler is a writer, editor and podcaster who has been published by MTV News, New York Magazine, The Hollywood Reporter, Comic Book Resources and more. He is the co-author of The Evolution of Strategy: 30 Seasons of Survivor, an audiobook chronicling the reality TV show’s transformation, and one of the hosts of Post Show Recaps, a podcast about film and television. Follow Josh on Twitter @roundhoward.
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