Garry Shandling may not have quite the same level of name recognition among the general public as comedians such as Jay Leno or David Letterman, who have hosted late-night television shows, but when you watch, The Zen Diaries of Garry Shandling, premiering tonight on HBO, you will discover that it was by choice.
Shandling had the opportunity to sign on as host of The Tonight Show following Johnny Carson‘s retirement — he had guest-hosted many times — but his belief that his comedy was more of an art that he wanted to pursue in his own way, led him to turn down the opportunity.
That is not to say that Shandling wasn’t successful. He is one of the most respected comics by his peers.
“He was defintely interested in the art and doing good work,” says Judd Apatow, a close friend of Shandling’s and the executive producer of the four-hour documentary. “I think he thought there was no way he could make It’s Garry Shandling’s Show as strong as it needed to be and host The Tonight Show well if he was doing both at the same time, so he gave up hosting The Tonight Show.”
If that is a surprising fact, there are many more revealed in the detailed examination of Shandling’s ability to survive the ups and downs of a life in show business, which features conversations with more than 40 of Shandling’s family and friends, including James L. Brooks, Jim Carrey, Sacha Baron Cohen, David Coulier, Jon Favreau, Jay Leno, Kevin Nealon, Conan O’Brien, Bob Saget, Jerry Seinfeld and Sarah Silverman.
Parade.com has an exclusive interview with Appatow in which he talks about his friendship with Garry, how he located the personal journals, private letters and candid home audio and video footage that are featured in The Zen Diaries of Garry Shandling, and more.
This is personal for you because of your connection to Garry. So how much convincing did it take to get HBO to say yes?
Garry has a long history with HBO. After he did It’s Garry Shandling’s Show for Showtime, he did an HBO special, which is really one of the great HBO specials of all time, and then he did The Larry Sanders Show for HBO. In the early days of HBO, there were a lot of shows like 1st & Ten, and they hadn’t really found their groove. People at HBO say that when they saw The Larry Sanders Show, they realized, “Oh, this is who we should be. We should be the quality network. The bar should be this high.” Then they began looking for shows of a certain quality.
I think the show inspired people. I heard a story that David Chase saw The Larry Sanders Show and said to himself, “Oh, we’re allowed to do this now,” and it inspired him as he was creating The Sopranos.
So, when Garry passed and we put on a big memorial service for him, HBO paid for it. I said, “I think this service was so inspiring that we could probably make an amazing documentary about Garry,” and [Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of HBO] Richard Plepler instantly said yes.
Tell me about meeting Garry.
I met Garry when I was 16. I interviewed him over the phone. He was a comedian. He had just hosted The Tonight Show for the first time. This is in the early ‘80s and I was interviewing comedians for my high school radio station.
Then I became a comedian and I met him at The Comedy & Magic Club in Hermosa Beach in 1991. He needed someone to write jokes for the Grammys, and I became friends with him when I did that job. Then when The Larry Sanders Show was created, he asked me to join the staff. Later he asked me to direct an episode and I had never directed before. He just had some sense that I would be good at it.
Throughout my life, he’s been a mentor both creatively and spiritually because he was the first person to ever talk to me about Buddhism. He would give me these books and we would talk about them. It had big effect on my life.
In the documentary, did you direct people as to what to say about Garry, or did they have free rein?
I just did normal conversations. I felt like I knew Garry so well. I didn’t want to be in the first person telling Garry’s story. I felt like it was important for the interviews to be conversational. I didn’t do the type of interviews where I would cut myself out and not show the questions. I wanted it to be friends of Garry chatting about Garry.
What’s incredible is the amount of footage that you found and his notes. How did you get access to it? Some of the notes, you make it look as if he’s writing it. Is that a special process?
Yeah, that’s modern CGI. When Garry passed, we went through his house and he had saved so much. What was interesting was that in life, he had none of it out. It’s like he saved everything but just chucked it in a box and put it in a closet. Then when you went through everything, it was all there. He had kept journals for 30 years, since the mid-’70s. He kept every notepad with a joke on it, every script, photographs from his childhood, none of which I had ever seen.
I just started going through everything, reading everything, and at one point Garry was thinking about doing some sort of TV special or series where he went through his journals. So he shot a little bit for that. It was something that didn’t happen, but we also took it as a sign that he was okay with us reading and exploring this because he had considered doing it.
Now that you have all this memorabilia, are you going to put it in a library or somewhere?
We’re going to put out a book down the line. We’re putting a book together, and then at some point, it will live on a website, and I’m sure we’ll donate it to some institution.
One of the things I learned in the documentary is that Garry changed modern comedy. Can you talk about in what way you think that is?
Sitcoms were very traditional in the early ‘80s, and with It’s Garry Shandling’s Show, he came up with a premise that was very imaginative and very groundbreaking. It basically said you can do anything in this format. It doesn’t just have to be people talking in their apartments. A lot of the people who wrote for that show went on to work on or create The Simpsons, and people like Mike Reiss and Al Jean are in the documentary talking about how a lot of the ideas from It’s Garry Shandling’s Show and the philosophy had a giant effect on a show like The Simpsons.
In the same way, The Larry Sanders Show was one of the first really innovative single-camera comedy shows in the early ‘90s, and that seems to have inspired everything that we’re seeing with single-camera comedies like The Office, 30 Rock, and Girls.
So his impact was more on TV than standup?
Well, he was a fantastic stand-up. He was a brilliant stand-up, but I think that his television writing was very groundbreaking.
There is a comment from Conan O’Brien that Garry saw comedy as art as opposed to just telling jokes. Is that one of the things that made him stand out?
I think that he was always trying to be innovative, but I think his main intention was to be honest and to go deep. He wanted to show the struggle that people have to be happy, to make connections, and I think he brought an intention to his work that we hadn’t seen as much in television comedy before then. The Larry Sanders Show was a very deep satirical exploration of people with big egos who want everything.
In a way it all relates to the Trump Era, people who think that the only thing that matters is success and everything that goes wrong when you believe that. He used to say The Larry Sanders Show is about people who love each other but show business gets in the way, and that’s what he was interested in, what prevents people from connecting.
You mentioned that he wanted to show people what makes them happy, but then there is that quote from you that he was either the happiest person or he had lost his mind.
I think that he was a complicated person. I think he would probably say he was happy most of the time, but he certainly had his issues and things that weighed upon him. He was a big thinker. I think a lot of the reason why he was interested in Buddhism was a lot of Buddhism is about trying to live more in your heart than in your head. I’m sure that’s something that he struggled with and, hopefully, was able to get better at throughout his life.
So that’s why the Zen is in the title?
Yeah. Sarah Silverman has a great line she says, “Garry wasn’t interested in Zen because he was Zen. He was interested in Zen because he needed Zen.”
Would you say that the defining point in Garry’s life was the death of his brother when he was 10?
I think that certainly was a defining moment in his life. He was a 10-year-old boy, and his brother, who he looked up to and seemed to have a really very close, beautiful relationship with, was 13. Then suddenly Garry’s alone in his house with his parents, and all the dynamics changed. That seemed to have created a lot of his emotional issues.
And then you see how that led to his interest in comedy, because he became a young kid who was spending a lot of time alone. He was on his Ham radio all day and he was watching TV. I think a common thread for a lot of comedians is sometimes when you’re a kid you’re alone, you want to be heard, you want to be seen. You see comedy as a way to express yourself and get some attention that you need.
Also of note to me was that he took his jokes to George Carlin and George Carlin actually took the time to read them and have him come back, and then he gave him a critique.
Yes. Yes.
I always think of the comedy world as being really competitive. Do comedians really help each other out like that, or is that unusual?
I think that comedians do help each other out. It really is a tribe and people have a lot of love for anyone who attempts to do it. That’s an amazing story because Garry was in college and he wrote all these jokes for George Carlin, and he asked George Carlin to read them after a show at a club, and George Carlin said, “Come back tomorrow, and I’ll let you know what I think of them.” Then he said, “I don’t buy jokes, but there’s a great joke on every page, so if you want to pursue this, I think that you should.” That was all Garry needed. He moved to California and set out to try be a comedy writer and a comedian, and I often think that’s why he was nice to me and mentored me.
Right, pay it forward.
I think that in his mind somewhere he thought, “Oh, this is what you’re supposed to do.” I think I felt like that when I met all the kids from Freaks and Geeks. On some unconscious level, I thought, “Yeah, you’re supposed to help the next generation.”
When you were researching this, did you learn anything about him that you didn’t already know? Were there any surprises for you?
Most of it was surprises because as close as I was to Garry, he never told me about his childhood. I didn’t have the deepest conversations about everything he was going through. We talked a lot about his relationship with his mom because we both had complicated mom’s that caused us a lot of pain at different times of our lives, so we talked about how we were navigating those issues, but tons of it I didn’t know.
The Zen Diaries of Garry Shandling premieres tonight at 8 p.m. ET/PT on HBO. The documentary will also be available on HBO NOW, HBO GO, HBO On Demand and affiliate portals.
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